The talent acquisition world is changing fast. With AI recruitment tools flooding the market in 2025, many TA teams are left asking the same question: how do we separate real value from smoke and mirrors?

In this week’s TA Disruptors podcast, Arctic Shores co-founder Robert Newry sits down with Angela Renfrew, Director of Talent and Leadership Development at First Bus, to explore exactly that. Angela shares how her team is cutting through the hype, reshaping hiring at scale, and turning sceptical hiring managers into advocates — all while keeping candidate experience front and centre.

Episode highlights

💡 From sceptics to champions: how First Bus used hard data to win over hiring managers and build trust in new ways of hiring.

📊 One source of truth: why creating a central data set is key to getting the wider business aligned and onboard with change.

⚙️ Automation that actually works: Angela’s lessons on starting with your ATS, scrapping outdated processes, and building the right foundations before layering in AI.

🔄 Reskilling for an AI-enabled world: why recruitment success isn’t just about new tools, but helping teams build the skills to thrive alongside them.

🚌 Rethinking early careers: how First Bus is challenging outdated hiring assumptions by assessing potential, not just CVs.

Why this matters

AI recruitment tools in 2025 promise everything from faster screening to smarter matching. But as Angela explains, without clear problems to solve and strong data foundations, they risk automating chaos.

The First Bus story is a blueprint for TA leaders everywhere:

1️⃣ Focus on business outcomes, not tech features.
2️⃣ Use data as your single source of truth.
3️⃣ Get the basics right before scaling automation.

Listen to the full conversation

Whether you’re wrestling with your ATS, evaluating AI recruitment tools, or trying to win over hiring managers, Angela’s insights will help you rethink your approach.

Listen now 👇

Transcript:

Robert: Welcome to the TA Disruptors podcast. I'm Robert Newry, co-founder and chief explorer at Arctic Shores, the task-based psychometric assessment company that helps organisations uncover potential and see more in people. 

And in this fourth series of the TA Disruptors podcast, we're looking at the impact of AI and what that means on recruitment and talking to TA thought leaders about how they are redesigning and re-looking at their processes and their teams to deal with the challenges that AI is bringing.  And in today's episode, I am really excited to welcome Angela Renfrew, Director of Talent Acquisition and Early Careers at Firstbus. 

And Firstbus is one of the largest bus companies in the UK, carrying more than a million passengers a day and serving more than 25 % of the UK population. And Angela, I know your role has just changed. So in the past, you've been responsible for hiring and development, but focused more on hiring now and early careers, not just it seems in FirstBus, but also in the first group. But this is an organisation with 14 thousand plus people and a broad set of roles within that, know, from drivers to engineers and senior leadership in it. So very exciting to be talking to you and looking forward to learning a bit more about how you go about approaching such a broad role in such a big organisation. 

But before we start, I also just want to bring out and emphasise that I know skills and hiring for potential is personally very important to you as well as obviously to FirstBus. But you've contributed to a white paper on this area too last year and look forward to talking a bit about that and why this is so important to you and First Bus. So welcome to the podcast.

Angela: Thank you. I am so excited to be here on a chat about some of these topics. You might need to stop me.

Robert: Well, I'm geared up for dealing with a good Glaswegian who's got lots to share with us. so we'll use this time to have a good discussion. And let's start by talking about some of the key challenges that you have been dealing with and maybe some of the new in your new role, some of the challenges you're going to tackle. So tell us a bit about that.

Angela: So I started with Bus just under two and half years ago. First time in transport, first time in that industry. Lots to learn. It is a business that is hungry for development, a real key focus on its people, which you know, is the thing that excited me most about the business.

Robert: And I think when you say that, what's interesting is because you'd come from a bit of financial services, hadn't you, beforehand? And so you tend to have a bit more,  I suppose, budget for technology and, you know, best practice.  And I imagine coming into the transport sector, there was still a bit of development that needed to done.

Angela: So, you know, it's really, really interesting. I think it's one of the things that surprised me most. When I joined the businesses, I came in with that connotation, but actually what I discovered was there was quite a healthy budget. It just had been directed in completely the wrong direction. So there was an extraordinarily high spend on a certain job board. There was a historic focus just on volume of applications and there was an ATS system that wasn't really getting used.  

So, and you know, for me, there's a couple of key things. So, you've already alluded to the fact I am Glaswegian. I am quite stereotypical from that area. You know, if I'm going to spend money on a, from the budget, it has to have impact. It has to add value. So I guess one of the, the kind of key challenges I had when I joined was one, understanding more about the industry, more about First Bus.  

There were a couple of things that really just appealed to me. You know, the key focus on its people, but also the sustainability agenda, was really important to me. I think it's quite easy to look at companies and be part of companies that talk a very good game, but actually the focus and drive and impact behind that is still...

Robert: Particularly transport, isn't it? It's massive. 

Angela: It's huge. Absolutely massive. So yeah, FirstBus is really special to me. As I say, I've been there just over two years. I had a real focus when I came in just on Brilliant Basics. So let's get the foundations right. Let's look at the tech that we have. Let's look at a new attraction strategy, let's try and change the focus within the business away from volume of applications to actually candidates that were progressing and having more of a focus on those conversion rates, but more importantly, the people we've taken through that journey and getting them started in the business and setting them up for success.  

So actually quite a healthy budget, just directed in the wrong direction. So, I guess kind of in the last two years, particularly the last year, year and a half, we have started working with a really forward-thinking attraction company and partnering with an agency side by side. You know, we've made great strides in that space.

Robert: So you had to just on that attraction piece. Why was that one of the key foundation areas? Because you were saying there'd been this wrong focus on, because I see it so many times, the volume space, where it's kind of a vanity metric of how many people applied, when that doesn't necessarily turn into Have I got the best people? 

Angela: Absolutely. So that was the attraction strategy when I joined, which was essentially let's just throw lots and lots of money at one job board. But know, times are changing. You can't be sitting waiting on lots of people coming to you for a job. It's not the way the world is anymore. So what we did is, first of all, we started to build out an EVP.

We didn't have one. We started to look at what our new starters were saying. So we started getting really responsive feedback from candidates, whether they had been successful, whether they had been rejected, whether they had withdrawn. Because of the nature of the industry we operate within, especially within the driver side, we are targeting the same sort of candidates that you would in retail, hospitality. So pace, transparency, all of that is really key.

So we looked at that, and then as I sa,y we partnered up with a couple of new agencies and it's just completely changed what we do from an attraction perspective. We are much more intelligent, Fundamentally it's data-driven, we get real insights on where we're spending and what that impact has. We follow that through across each of the key conversion points. We work with the business in certain areas on attrition.

And if we are seeing high attrition, we've designed a survey to get more input from people who are leaving us to just really understand if there's some key things we could do at the start of the process. We are a bus company, but it would surprise you the amount of people that we recruit and they come in on their first couple of days and realise, I'm going to have to drive a bus.

And you know, I've never, I'll be quite honest, I think I am now more afraid of double-decker buses than I ever was before because when you're up close in one of the engineering spaces and they're up in the guys underneath, you actually appreciate the sheer scale of them. So you can understand why it's quite daunting. And I think the other thing we really faced from an attraction perspective is, know, people have connotations of what bus drivers are.

Typically, they just grunt at you, they are stereotypically male, middle-aged, you know, it's a change in dynamic. We operate in multiple communities across the United Kingdom and we need to really start representing the communities we serve. 

Robert: And I just imagine it's much more customer-centric now too, rather than just- You got your barrier up, don't talk to anybody. 

Angela: Absolutely. I mean, there's lots and lots of new tech on the buses. But at the end of the day, it is a customer-facing role. It is about health and safety. It's about getting passengers from A to B  in a really safe way. And again, some of the things I didn't think about going back to that sustainability agenda, if you look at a double-decker bus, which I still find quite daunting because they're so large when you see them up,  that can remove 70 cars off of the road. So the impact we can have by getting more people on buses and… moving the everyday is massive. But what we also want to do is make sure that we've got the best people behind the wheel speaking to your gran, your nephew, your child, utilising the bus for work or school. It's really important. And I think a lot of people misjudge the element of customer-facing that comes into that role. So that was one of the main areas of focus. 

The other area of focus, which is still an area of focus is particularly in engineering, is just the national skill shortage we have. 

Robert: Because we had a bus driver shortage. we just a driver shortage. 

Angela: Yes, post-COVID. So just as I started,  just over two years ago, we were kind of in the midst of that. We've made great inroads to date with that. But a lot of that is not just bringing the right people into the business. 

A lot of that is the business really investing in what it does for its people know, continued development, enhanced development. We have really, really listened to the feedback and engagement surveys from our staff,  even down to brake spaces for drivers. These things are really, really important when you're at work, is having somewhere nice to sit and have your break and chat to your colleagues. So there's been a real investment there, which again, going back to it, is one of the key things for me in First Bus, it really… really focuses on those key areas which sometimes is harder to find in other businesses is. 

Robert: No, I understand that. And I think it's part of the challenge when you're coming into a role that you can really make that impact that's, you know, I think part of all for all of us that when we come in, we want to be able to feel that we're leaving whenever we do the space that we've come into in a better shape than when we arrived. And so I get that point about, you're looking at the volumes and how you do talent acquisition, then you've got a whole skills piece.  

But I'd like just to kind of bring it back to the ATS  a bit around that. And you were saying, where are you spending your money on all of this? there is, how are you bringing in technology and automation then to support that? Because you can cover the skills piece, but you've also got the volume piece in there and how you find. So share with us then how you're looking at that. 

Angela: So, you know, I still laugh about this to the day. So after my first week in the business, I got a call from Kevin, our CPO, my boss, and he was saying, you know, how's it going? And I was like, I  need to look at this ETS. I'm just, not convinced. You know, he kindly talked me back off a ledge and said, you know, you've got quite a few things to look at, so all in your stride.

And actually what happened over the next couple of weeks is, you know, it's the usual, the usual scenario. It just wasn't getting used to the base of its ability. 

Robert: Yes, because a lot of people sort of complain about an ATS and it's not necessarily that the ATS is fault. It's sometimes, well, how are you using it? And how has it been set up? Because that may not actually be the fault of the ATS. It's more about process. 

Angela: Absolutely. So we discovered we had a lot more functionality on there that we hadn't been using. We discovered that we'd actually paid for additional functionality that we hadn't designed and rolled out. we've got to a really, really good place. A big part of that though is having to automate quite a number of processes behind the scenes. 

Robert: And did you have, because that can be quite challenging, all that automation. Did you have somebody who was able to do that for you? Was that you had to kind of figure…

Angela: No, I'm very lucky I have someone very good in my team that is more of a tech whiz than I am in this space. So automation for us was, know, those areas that it was just really manual, really time consuming, breaking down some of the historic kind of long-winded practices. So a couple of the key areas we've automated is one, the candidate engagement surveys really, really important to me. It gives us a real insight we need to help us continuously improve and develop. 

Robert: And that is something, funny enough, that people kind of talk a bit about. Yeah. But unless you're a consumer-led organisation, which you clearly are as first bus on that one, that you can overlook the power and the value of that data, as you say, because it's not just, were you happy as a candidate? But what other things can we learn from it? 

Angela: Absolutely. And I think you know, just going back to some of the key data we were getting out of that. And it's probably one of my big lessons learned from FirstBus and probably any organisation I've worked in. 

You come into a business that is probably not in the right space and it's TA in capacity. And you want to come in, you want to do all these new things, all these heavily invested ideas and we're going to change the world and we're going to be really, really modern. But you can't forget to take the business with you.

And I think in first bus that was probably one of the biggest and wisest lessons that I've learned, which is what we started seeing through this candidate feedback is actually we probably needed a lot more development in the space of hiring managers and people who were doing the interviews and the selections. And, you know, I always laugh about everyone's got an opinion about recruitment. Everyone can do recruitment. Everyone has an opinion on it.

But actually when you look at some of the hiring managers that we have within First Bus, they're drivers, they're trainers, they're engineering managers, and they've never been given any training. So we started rolling that out quite quickly, focusing on how to set up an interview, key pieces of information to share with candidates.  We got much more consistent and structured in our interview approach,  and really just bring into life unconscious and conscious bias, did here a few times when I was newly in the business, I know what a good driver looks like. Which put the fear into me.  So it's really about working with the business and taking them on that journey. It's how you get by and absolutely how you get by. 

Robert: And then I think the other lesson that I learned is, you can talk a good game, you can talk about all the best tech in the world, but actually, unless you've got the data to back it up, you're just missing a trip.

So I that's so interesting, isn't it? And how are you getting that data then? Did you have to put some new things in to make sure you were capturing the data? 

Angela: Two things is probably the biggest pill for us at the minute. So we introduced Power AI to utilise the data from our ATS. That is something that I can use. Someone in my team.

Robert: Because that's half the challenge, isn't it? The data is out there. But how do you then... Get access to it in a way that you can then interpret. And how do you get a single source of the truth? 

Angela: Yes. And I think historically a lot of the recruitment activity had been split between central and local business because local business maybe were not getting the service that they actually deserved and required. So now we have a single source of truth. 

Robert: And that's all through the ATS? 

Angela: All through the ATS. I'm going to come onto attraction in a minute because we have a different way of data there which is really exciting to me.

So the data from the ATS that we utilise through Power AI gives us instant access to volumes across each stage of the process and more importantly, where we're seeing dropout and it helps us refine the focus on where we need to make amendments, where we need to make improvements or where actually we maybe need buy-in from other parts of the business to help assist with that. 

So that's been really, really important and that is data that we share with the business on a regular basis. And it's probably the first time they've had such a piece of data. And it really emphasises and backs up the story of, you know, this is where we need to make changes. The other part for me, which is really exciting because I haven't operated in this way before, is that we've partnered with a couple of agencies who are doing some really forward-thinking in that attraction space. And a lot of it is data driven.

So we have data. And we can map on the career site or on an advert or on a microsite where candidates are clicking and expecting a link for an application, but there's no link there and it helps us rejig it. But again, it also shows us the investment that we're putting in, what we're getting from that investment and what that then flows through to be candidates who land in the business. And also just, you know, as a Glaswegian who is somewhat tight with spend, it's had a real impact. We've reduced spend by about 55 % in that space, which is a massive number. But just to be clear, in case any of the finance team are listening, what that does mean is we have reduced our budget overall, but it freezes up more spends to focus on EVP, new assets, different campaigns. We're looking to do some very interesting things with virtual reality and taking out the roles and first bus out to communities.

But actually, the targeting and the way that we're doing attraction now is much more data-driven. So programmatic, out of home, geo-targeting, know, it's meta and recontacting and retargeting candidates. It's really starting to drive the candidate pools that we want to attract, which is having a great impact again. And we can really see that with the conversion rates utilising Power of  AI and the data that gives us.

Robert: …get the basics right, single source of truth, be data driven. So all of these things now, starting to make things better and then AI comes along. And now suddenly candidates have access to technology that can make a real mess of all those careful basics. And so have you seen any impact of AI in your... process and what kind of impact has that been? 

Angela: Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I think AI is a brilliant tool if you know how to use it in the right way. So where I've seen it used really well and where I think I probably sit is where you have knowledge, you can help it refine what you see, you're for both, make it be a bit more pointed. Where I do struggle with it is where people have no knowledge or no background, are utilising ChatGPT or other AI to help bring to life either a presentation or help doctor their CV.  

And it's, you know, it's how do we catch that? Because I have had the unfortunate situation of doing interviews with candidates, and it becomes really apparent very, very quickly.

Robert: So you've seen, you've absolutely personally seen that impact where somebody in front of you was not what you expected. 

Angela: Absolutely. And it's clearly been an AI driven CV help tool where they've maybe plugged in the job advert or the job description. It's given them some context, which when you look at it, I think, perfect match. But actually, once you start that conversation and once you start to delve a bit more into it, there's just a complete lack of knowledge. And for me, that does two things. For me, interviews and recruitment and early careers.

To me, the heart of all of that is about setting people up for success for when they join a business. You want to enable people to get the best out of their role, but you also want to help them be the best they can be. And I think for me, that's just what I have a slight niggle about the use of AI, particularly in CVs, is if we have people who are maybe more inexperienced in doing recruitment or interviews, they will look at this, have that conversation, maybe not delve in the right area, and you're bringing someone into the business that you're going to need to, you know.

Robert: Well, that's right. And it's going to be a disaster.

Angela: It is. And it's not fair all round.

Robert: So what's my, you may or may not be aware that, you know, I've been running a campaign to scrap the CV for three years now and  AI has really brought to light that CVs really have had their time.

What's your perspective then on a big group like that and hiring managers' view as well? Do you think you could scrap the CV?

Angela: So we have to an extent in some areas. So we've scrapped it for drivers.

Robert: Great. So anybody can apply for roles anytime?

Angela: Yep, we’ve utilised quick apply. You have the option to put some notes in, but you don't need to. We have scrapped it for early careers. Because again, you...a hiring manager's natural instinct with a CV is to sit and have a 30-minute conversation covering their employment history.

Why? You know, I kind of lose the will sometimes being involved in conversations and going back to one of my earlier roles, so not in first pass, we did volume recruitment for contact centres, and we had hiring managers who would automatically decline a candidate at interview if they've recently graduated because their view was, they won't stick around for long. one is looking for a job for life anymore.

And it's just, that. It's this kind of bias that's in-built. I had another situation in one of my previous companies where we were doing a grad campaign and the specification I was given with the hiring manager was, we only want good students from good degrees, from good universities.

So straight away my ears pricked and I was like, explain this to me in a bit more detail. And it was Oxford, Cambridge and what followed was quite a heated and lively discussion about, I don't think a lot of people at Oxford and Cambridge are sitting dreaming about working for this company. We need to be more realistic and actually if you look at degrees within early careers, irrespective of what university you're getting them from, it's a degree. They all go to the same… the same offices to be marked and to be benchmarked. So it's just a real clear stereotype.

Robert: you have, so you've a couple, so you're trapping it for drivers. And then how, how then have you used automation to help that? Because if you've scrapped it and you've got easy apply, you can be inundated.

Angela: Yes, and we are at the minute. We are moving forward with a couple of new tech implementations to help in that space. One of them being Arctic Shores.

Robert: So a different type of comfort blanket.

Angela: Yeah, but also, you know, the reason why I really like the offering is actually it will appeal to our candidate markets, both from a driving capacity, engineering but also early careers. know, the gamification for me just brings something completely different.

Robert: It is. It's that interaction, isn't it, that people want.

Angela: And it's not a really long-winded application where you have to upload your CV or, you know, woe betide you if you're dealing with an ATS that can't CV parse because who knows what you're going to end up with. But actually all that's doing is providing that story of your background.  

So where I've utilised it really successfully in the past, particularly with early careers, is we have a couple of key questions at the start, which helps bring to life the candidate because, you know, early careers, what work experience are we going to sit and drill into you for for 30 minutes?

Robert: Exactly, you haven't got it.

Angela: What clubs have you been part of? Oh, that indicates you'll be a really, really good candidate.

Robert: Oh, Duke of Edinburgh or something, which I always thought, yeah.

Angela: you know, bring to life your thoughts, bring to life the transferable skills that you have and let us really, really see what that potential is and then let's look at that assessment piece and look at it somewhat different. So with the drivers, we have moved to a quick apply, it's what our ATS offers. It has changed things dramatically for us. I think that'll...

Robert: Changed in what way? In just a faster time to hire or... Definitely faster. people dropping out or...

Angela: So I think one of the key things is, you know, again, going back to the market area that we appeal to. There is, you know, there's quite a few candidates who won't have a CV or won't know how to compile a CV. And if you're applying for a job, yes, we can put guides on to help you pull together a CV, but that's probably going to take you a day or two to get around it with work,  life, and family. And then you're having to start the application process and it's just you're extending that timeline. So, you know, it's looking at the core criteria that we need for that role.

And then when we do have the calls with the candidates and then bringing them into Depot, it's about really understanding what they want is, what their customer experience level is, how focused they are on health and safety? But obviously with a bit of training, you wouldn't just let someone go wild in a bus out on the street.

Robert: Well, we'd be relieved to know that, but yeah.

Angela: But that in comparison to, okay, you've done three months with this retailer and… 12 months before that in hospitality, okay, but it doesn't tell me anything. your transferable skills. It doesn't tell me anything. I think with the more specialist and senior roles, I think it's more of a challenge to get people moving to that space.

Robert: It is, but you've got to start somewhere. And I think when the business starts to see the value that you can hire in a different way, it becomes easier then to start nudging that into other roles.

So, okay, so I like your point about let's open things up, AI, we have the challenge of we want to make it super easy, but we want to avoid the sort of manipulation. The phrase I came across the other day, which I really like, is use AI to prepare, not to pretend. And I think that's where we're trying to get to. And so how...How do you see AI for your own teams use? Are you starting to look at that too? Are you initiating any projects? be lovely to hear what your

Angela: Yeah, so we are about to transition onto a new HRIS and ATS system at the tail end of this year. 

Robert: Okay, that's a big change. 

Angela: It's a very big change. But, you know, it offers some additional functionality that we maybe don't have, but we also in the same area lose some functionality that we do have. So particularly in the volume space, what we're looking at is a piece of tech that helps with, you know, just those more manual activities for candidates, but also for recruitment teams. So, you know, maybe your interview time slot has changed, maybe something's come up and it doesn't work anymore. Instead of a centralised mailbox or waiting to speak to someone.

You know, we will have a chatbot that can help straight away with that. And it just removes the pain, makes it really, really, really quick, doesn't impact the candidate, doesn't add an additional step where we think, this could be a drop-off point where they just get really frustrated and go. So that's probably one of the big areas. We also have quite a few projects coming up and AI is one of them, because I think just as recruiters, we all need to be just a bit more skilled in it.

But also, you know, I see a lot on LinkedIn about, you know, the recruitment robots are taking over. No one will need their TA teams moving forward. At the end of the day, we're a people function. I have a young cousin who has just applied for her first role and she's went from application, initial sifting, interview, not speaking to one person.

Robert: Well, that's right, isn't it? And you think, hang on.

Angela: How do you really understand the role? How do you understand if you're a fit for it? How does the company understand? I just, you know, I think we should harness AI to enable making a smoother journey for candidates and for hiring managers and also for recruiters. But we can't be looking to replace, you know, we're not it's not Terminator. We're not looking for the robots to come in and take over the world.  We should be using it to enhance and enable but not to pretend.

Robert: Yes, and also to make sure that we're keeping a human oversight on it. I think people are right about when they worry that automation moves into machine decision making.  

And I'm with you on that perspective of AI can help make the recruiters lives simpler in terms of removing some of the administrative tasks, burdens, scheduling being, you know, good one there, taking interview notes. But we don't want the CV passing and it's very easy to kind of slip into the, oh, just take away some of the sort of heavy lifting on things that actually you still want a human providing some oversight.
Angela Absolutely. It's, you know, and I come back to the roles that we recruit for, it's customer facing predominantly. Even if you're working in a specialist area of the business, you're interacting with people. And for me, I don't know how I would go about applying for a role and not being able to speak to anyone until either really far into the process where I've not had the opportunity. And I think this is really key.

And I think it's something that businesses are not paying enough attention to candidates are unable to opt out and that is something that we should be helping them do and I don't mean that from a no you're not suitable for us but actually again I go back to the heart of everything for me which is setting people up for success, setting candidates up for success and recruitment at the end of the day and the roles that we advertise and we are selling the business and we are selling the roles.

But you also need to be really realistic about what those roles are and transferable skills and  what does hybrid working mean nowadays to people? means multiple different things. So the value and the importance of those conversations to me can never be lost.  I think you absolutely utilise AI where it adds value. But I think sometimes, especially some of the things I hear, and podcasts that I listen to and papers on LinkedIn, there's a real focus on let's just try and transition everything to AI. And I think we're just gonna end up in a messy, messy place.

Robert: I think we are and you've gotta be, there's almost too much excitement about all the things that AI can do. it can do a lot of good things, but it can also do a lot of bad things if not done well. So I think it's been really interesting then about how you've gone about approaching things here. You've got the basics right, sorted out. We've got a single source of truth. We, you've then gone and looked at making sure that we've got data to drive decisions on all of this, upskilling the team and, know, how can we use automation and AI to reduce some of the heavy lifting around that, introducing new tech around some of that. There's a lot of things going on in all of that. Does that cover everything then of how you've gone about making your changes?

Angela: Yeah, mean, traction was the biggie, processes was the next,  utilizing the data across both of them to have that single source narrative to feed back to the business to help get them on board,  excuse the pun, and also get them to really, really understand what it is that we're trying to achieve, up-skilling the team, absolutely, but also one of the things I'm currently dealing with is we are restructuring as a business, and I'm also restructuring the function that I oversee.  And there's a couple of key pieces in there. 

So I am introducing, and it's a discussion we had when we previously met, I am introducing a role which is really, really focused on strategic projects,  but is also really focused on how we enable and deliver early careers in a different way to what we've maybe done historically.

Robert: And I really like that idea of we've not had that in the TA function before.  

Angela: Side of desk.

Robert: It is. You have a strategic transformation that's going on. So why wouldn't you have a strategic project manager? We talked about a new role that I'd come across called, you know, TA enablement on this and we have sales enablement, we have marketing enablement, we've had this in other areas but somehow TA hasn't been allowed to invest in that. How do we create that automation? Because as you said at the beginning of all of this, we are in TA a people function but we've got less resources now so we need more tech and so we need the resource that gets that balance between tech, and keeping the human touch in there. And you need some to lead those projects.

Angela: Absolutely. And I think you've heard it on the head, it's a really, really fine point between tech and people. Everything for me needs to be value add. And that's not just from a cost perspective, but you it has to add value to what we do. It has to add value to the candidate journey, has to add value to the hiring manager journey. And you know, if it adds value to the recruiter journey, then we'll take it, but there has to be a value add in it.  

And I think it's really easy to get swept up on everything you hear about what everyone else is doing, but at  the heart of it, has to be right for your business. It has to be right for what you're trying to achieve. And we've harnessed and we've partnered with some really, really special organisations up until now.  

But as you mentioned, for me, it's been brilliant basics for the last year and a half. For me, it's strategic projects, it's continuous improvement, we have to move with the times as a business we are transitioning. So how do we match that? How do we keep up to date? But also how do we keep really, really forward thinking in this space? are looking to do more for less. I think we have achieved that, but it's on an ongoing basis, you need to keep doing that.

Robert: It’s been fascinating talking to you about that, Angela, and thank you sharing all those things and good luck in the next stages of your transformation here and thank you for sharing all those insights with all of us today.

Angela: Thank you, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's a really exciting time for me. It's an exciting company, so I am over the moon about the opportunities we've got moving forward. But yeah, thanks for having me today.